Welcome to the Cake Decorators Q&A

Hi
Can anybody tell me if it’s worth buying some gum of arabic to add to a cake mixture prior to baking in order to keep the cake moist? I read this info on the internet and just wondered.

Also on same vein is it true that adding some lemon curd to raw lemon cake mix, also prior to baking, would also make a moister cake? If so how much should be added to say a 6 or 7inch round cake tin or beyond?

Any advice would be grateful thanks.

Hello bellscakes

Gum Arabic is found in all sorts of confectionary products including cakes and pastries. If you look at the ingredients in bakery produced cakes you’ll invariably see some reference to it or to other gums like guar or xanthum. Initially they all acts as a thickener and binder and also have emulsifying properties which help keep in moisture. It’s really up to you if you’d like to try it. Just follow any instructions given in the information which you’ve been reading and take note of the results. My family have long used it for thickening custards and other puddings and not so much in baking.
As for lemon curd, yes that will certainly moisten cake. For an 8″ cake I use a couple of tablespoons in the cake batter, so reduce that slightly for smaller cakes. Using too much will cause your cake to be very sticky and although very tasty the structure will not be as strong and as dense and more liable to break due to the texture being softer. This of course is from my personal experience, other members may have another.

EDIT

I also use gum Arabic as glue and for making a glaze for marzipan fruits. Also as glaze on breads and scones.
When my hubby and I used to paint we would thicken our water colours with it so they didn’t spread on the paper too quickly. It has many, many other uses too.

Hi

Many thanks for all the information which has certainly given me food for thought. I will definitely try out the lemon curd in my next lemon cake and may well try out the gum of arabic just to experiment. I’m not sure if this is something that would be suitable for vegetarians but can take a look on the internet for that.

I am going to be making a wedding cake next year and naturally want the sponge tiers to be moist hence the query about the two additives, I have twice made deep madeira type cakes which didn’t turn out well. The first one was too wet in the middle and the second one was too dry! Well baking is not an exact science I guess so it’s a case of trial and error but frustrating none the less. Thanks again.

Gum Arabic is completely vegetarian. It’s a natural substance from the acacia tree and used in not just the food industry, also in medicine and pharmacy.
Madeira cake does seem a little dry when first baked. The texture softens after about three days and becomes moist but sturdy. It is the perfect type sponge for wedding cakes as the shelf life of approx 2 weeks allows for stress free decorating in the first week and eating in the following. By which time the cake has ‘matured.
I don’t know which madeira recipe you’re using, the temperature and length of time you’re baking and also the shape (round , square or other??) so can’t really say why you had the problems. Madeira bakes for longer on lower temperature than a normal sponge and will dome and crack slightly. This is indicative that the cake is baked or almost done. There is a rough guide for timing here http://www.cakeflix.com/questions/help-madeira-recipes-and-cooking-times more information for making a moist madeira here http://www.cakeflix.com/questions/adding-glycerine-to-a-madeira-cake-recipe Simple syrup can also be used to moisten each cake layer before filling which also helps as preservative.
If you type in the above search box ‘madeira cake’ there are many related questions and answers all of which serve as extremely useful information.
If you post a little more information on the type of madeira you want I would be happy to make a test run for you using the gum arabic which I keep all the time anyway. Madeira is my hubby’s fav cake so it wouldn’t be any hardship. However, I really don’t think there is a need, it’s just a case of getting the recipe and timing right. You’ve got lots of time to practice! x

I’ll definitely bake it up this weekend if not sooner. If you don’t mind me saying I really don’t think all the extra wrapping, newspaper and water is necessary and possibly contributed to the how the cake finished up. Certainly on large cakes extra precautions should be taken because of the lengthy bake time, on small cakes I feel it’s over kill. I’ll also let you have my own recipe as a comparison.

Hi again

Thanks that’s great and I look forward to hearing how it went. No I don’t mind your comments about the newspaper or bowl of cold water. This is what the recipe recommended but yest I can see how that would have perhaps been a contributary factor to the end result.

Thanks I would like to try your recipe and see how I’d get on with that. Is your recipe for a deep madeira cake like the one I gave you?
Many thanks and happy baking!

Hi Bellscakes,
Been interesting reading through this thread of questions and answers. I baked the same Maderia cake as you last weekend and was disapointed. I too am looking a lemon cake for a wedding so have done a bit of research and have come up with this recipe to try.
http://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/4576/wedding-cake-zingy-lemon
Take a look at the reviews and see what you think, might be worth a try. Another few links all to bbc good food, which are tried and tested recipes are:
http://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/4578/creating-your-wedding-cake
http://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/11278/simple-elegance-wedding-cake
http://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/10860/easy-vanilla-cake

Hope it is helpful/ I look forward to see what madeitwithlove comes up with. I am always up for trying new recipes

Hi marie2

I’m so glad you also found the Jane Hornby wedding cake collection which includes the zingy lemon cake, it’s just fab! I recommended her cakes to members quite a while back and every feed back has been great. I’ve baked all the recipes in the links you’ve provided, these exist on the site already but really good to see your endorsement too. Will be trying out bellescakes recipe on Sunday after we’ve munched through Paul’s choccy cake which I baked only yesterday. Happy baking. x

Hi Marie2

That’s intersting you baked the same madeira cake recipe last week and it was also a disappointment! Yes it’s a lot of work to have a poor result.

I look forward to following the web links you gave gave me as I am really looking for foolproof recipes for my daughter’s wedding cake. I am planning a fruit cake for the bottom tier and the rest chocolate, lemon, and madeira and just want to get it spot on.

Happy baking.

I have baked both the Zingy Lemon and the vanilla sponge today and I am quite pleased with both. As they are both practice cakes, I just cut a little of both to try them. I didn’t use the syrup because of freezing them, will be interesting to see how they freeze. I will cut them both in half and try syrup on one half and none on the other to see what is best.
I am still open to try any other recipes you ladies know of that might be suitable for a wedding cake. Lemon and a vanilla is what the bride and groom are interested in.
Bellscakes have you found a good fruit cake to bake for your daughters wedding cake? If not you should try Eddie Spence’s fruit cake. I bake it and always get great comments.
I look forward to hearing how your baking goes on Sunday madeitwithlove
Have a great weekend
Marie2

I’ve baked the Quaint cakes recipe It’s now cooling, on Sunday I’ll try my usual recipe with the gum Arabic. I spoke to my aunt today about the gum, she’s not convinced it will make a soft cake because the product usually thickens so may make the cake more dense. We use it in puddings, custards, syrups and halvas. She couldn’t tell me how much to use since in our cooking we hydrate the hard gum or fry it before adding to what ever dish is being made. I just have the powder.
I’ll post with results here on Monday, both cakes will have had a chance to settle by then. Have a great weekend too, keep safe from the storms.
ps Interesting you use Eddie Spence’s fruit cake recipe. I received his book as a surprise Christmas present, it’s so beautiful but I know I’ll never use any of his stunning designs and techniques.

Hi again

Can’t wait to hear how your quaint cake madeira turned out. I think I will avoid the gum of arabic now in light of want you said.

Did the Delia Smith fruit cake/wedding cake/Christmas come from Eddie Spence? I have never heard of him but sounds likle you are enjoying the book. I will take a look on the internet for him.

Hi bellscakes

The recipe you posted for madeira was baked on Friday and has been settling now three days. It baked all the way through in the given time and rose to the height of 4″. I didn’t get the normal doming but the top and sides are very dry. Had to trim it down to just under 3.5″. I found there to be far too much mixture for the tin size so the resulting cake is very tight and too dense for my taste. It cuts like a loaf, although it has a good flavour. It’s becoming less dry as the days have gone on. Yesterday (Sunday) I baked my usual recipe using the gum arabic as per your original inquiry. I have no idea how much to add so decided on 1 tea spoon in a 3 large egg mixture. My usual recipe is:
Weight of three large eggs + equal quantities of that weight in butter, sugar, self raising flour. In addition exactly half the weight in plain flour sifted in with the S/R . If using the gum arabic sift it in with the flour as you would when using baking powder.
Make up as in the creaming method. I beat the sugar and butter for at least 7 minutes. Add 1 slightly beaten egg in two stages at a time for each egg. The resulting emulsion should look like mayonnaise after each addition of egg. Takes ages! Sift flour into the mix in either two or three stages depending on the size of mixture and fold in gently with a large metal spoon. For this three egg mixture I add 1 tablespoon of warm water to loosen the batter slightly. Pour into prepared tin and push the batter to the sides in the usual way. I bake at 140c fan assisted oven for 1hr 20 minutes or until a wooden skewer comes out clean. I know you baked at 150c conventional oven, that is 130f in mine and is far too low for me. You’ll know the best temp for your oven.
Additionally to make lemon or orange madeira for this size I add the zest of one whole lemon and juice of half, for orange, zest and juice of the whole. I tend to leave water out for the orange as there is sufficient liquid, again depends on size of mix. I find using oil based flavour extracts work extremely well, best I think are the Nielson Massey extracts for intense flavour, go careful with the lemon, it’s very, very strong and can over power the lovely butter taste of the cake. This should be added into the sugar and butter during creaming, as should the zest to obtain depth of flavour. Liquids like juice or water at the end.
The basic recipe is a classic true madeira which has been going for ever. Finally this cake rose to 3.5″ and domed sightly. I’ve trimmed just the dome, turned it over and it measures 3″. I don’t like the slight gummy taste of the gum arabic (may be it’s my taste buds) plus I can’t honestly say it’s made a softer or harder crumb. The recipe without it is usually moist and softens further within a couple of days. I won’t be baking the other recipe again, like you I too think it’s a little disappointing. Oh I should also say that I don’t freeze my madeira if using within a few days of baking. Wrapped up in parchment paper, cling film and stored in an airtight container helps to soften it and mature the flavour. Hope this helps.

EDIT

I baked in 6″ round tin

Hi Madeitwithlove,
Think I will try your Madeira recipe for my lemon cake. Do you know how many eggs for an 8″ and how many for a 10″ round cake tin?
If I need these for a Saturday wedding when would you suggest baking? I would like to ganache and cover with fondant
Thanks for your help.
Marie2

Hi Marie2

I use 5 eggs for an 8″ cake and 8 eggs for 10″. Check the baking time for the 8″ after 1hr 20 minutes, it won’t be done but will give you an idea approximately how much longer you need it to bake on. I always open the oven door slightly so not to lose too much heat and very gently and very quickly touch the top of the cake to see how much wobbly is left. Close the door so it clicks together rather than a bang so not to cause a draught. The 10″ I bake for 2.5 hrs but check at 2.15. I do take extra precautions by wrapping the outside of the tin with wet towelling folded in strips of foil ( cake baking strips). I also place three metal upturned royal icing flower nails in the centre of the tin before pouring in the batter. Just helps to distribute the heat through the batter. My temperature remains 140c fan for all sizes, that is the correct temperature for my oven so you’ll know your best temp. If you like a very lemony cake Jane Hornby’s lemon amounts might suit you. I like more lemon in the drenching syrup, I find too much cold liquid in the batter changes the texture of the cake although I do add juice, just not as much as Jane does! I prefer warm water.
If I’m not freezing the cakes I bake them three days before needed. Wrap them up in parchment and several layers cling then place in an airtight box at room temperature. Madeira cake has good keeping properties and is good for a couple of weeks from baking. I’ve got some large cake carrier boxes which I bought in Morrison’s for £3.99 they work really well for the cakes and double up as bread bins.
Try a small cake first Marie for timing purposes and for taste and texture, as you know a Madeira is not soft and spongy like a Victoria cake. To get best results cream the sugar and butter really, really well and also combine the eggs really well particularly on the bigger cake. I like a nice dropping consistency when the batter is ready for pouring.

Hi

Thanks very much again for trying the deep madeira cake and also the one containing the gum of arabic. I think I will opt for a different madeira cake recipe now in light of your and Marie2’s experience. So would it be possible to have your madeira cake recipe then please? I would like to do a deep madeira cake so can you tell me how roughly tall the finished cake would be?

Many thaks.

Hi bellscakes

The recipe is as in the answer to Marie above. My cakes comes out with the dome 3.5″. With the 6″ cake I trimmed just the dome to get 3″ cake. If you want a deeper cake you’d have to increase the eggs and weigh the ingredients accordingly and also adjust the temperature and bake time. Deep cakes take a lot longer to set in the middle. I’d say to bake a small cake first to see whether you like the taste and texture and to take into account timing for the deeper mixture. I get different timing each time I bake a madeira and just keep an eye and nose on the bake. I should mention that this recipe makes a dense cake which likes a syrup drench before filling.

Thank you, madeitwithlove. I have your lemon Madeira in the oven as I type. I did the 6″ round to try. It is a lemon cake I need to do for my daughters wedding. I plan on doing a 3 tier is this the cake you would recommend for a lemon wedding??

Thank you, for all your help.

Kind Regards
Marie

Hi Marie

Madeira cakes are ideal wedding tiers because they’re sturdy and have a good shelf life so you can take your time decorating. A lot of folk get put off because this is a drier cake which becomes softer in texture a few days after baking, so not everyone’s choice. Adding syrup drench before filling moistens and adds more flavour to the sponge. The filling also moistens the cake creating a flavoursome but sturdy cake which can be cut into finger size portions without falling to pieces.
The strength of lemon flavour is to taste, what I would say though is not to over whelm the taste of the cake itself. Traditionally Madeira is a cake served on it’s own, without fillings, eaten either with a glass of Madeira wine (after which is named) or just at teatime with a cuppa. It’s a lovely buttery cake.
I don’t make wedding cakes as a rule, last one was three years ago and did include Madeira as the bottom tier. I do make a lot of celebration cakes. Apart from Paul’s chocolate cake, Madeira is the most requested which surprises me when you think of all the different types of cake people could ask for.
I usually make it up three days before I need it however it can be made up a week before and frozen which adds more moisture. Adding a quarter of a teaspoon of glycerine per egg to the batter can also help make a more moist cake. I don’t use glycerine but if I need the cake quickly I do add golden syrup which makes it a bit sticky. The best way to sample this madeira’s suitability for the wedding is allow your cake to soften for a few days, add a lemony drench and fill as you would for the wedding and see what you think. Jane Hornby’s zingy lemon may be more suitable if you’re looking for a softer cake. x

Thank you. After baking quite a few sample cakes I think your madeira is best. I did a 6″ and filled it with white chocolate ganache. It cuts nice and actually looks nice with a nice colour to the sponge, most of all it tastes good. I didn’t do the syrup for this one, but will try it again before the wedding and try some syrup in it.
Do you make your syrup with equal amounts of lemon juice and caster sugar?

For your 8″ and 10″ cake, how much lemon and how much water would you put in each cake? With the 6″, I did the rind of one whole lemon and the juice of half a lemon as well as 1TBSP of warm water. I think it made quite a nice cake.
Do you always do half weight of each flour (SR – P Flour), no matter the size of the cake?

What filling do you normally use with a lemon madeira? My daughter quite likes white chocolate ganache, the thing is she also would like sugarpaste as it would help with the design she wants on her cake.

I appreciate the time you have taken to answer all my questions. Thank you, very much.
Have a nice day!

Kind Regards
Marie

Hi Marie

For my 8″ cake I usually do zest of one and half lemon and juice of a whole and about 45ml water or until the batter is a nice dropping consistency. For the 10″, zest of three and juice of two and approximate 80ml water or again until you have a dropping consistency, you’d need to judge it for your batter. If there isn’t enough liquid in the batter it will be very stiff and the cake will be very dry and crumbly. The amount of lemon you use is to your own taste. I find my amounts suit the people I make for, simply because I fill with white chocolate buttercream or white ganache with added lemon curd. It tastes absolutely gorgeous and cuts through the sweetness of the white chocolate which can be sickly on it’s own. If you want to do that, add the curd a little at a time until you like the taste but doesn’t make the filling lose it’s spreadable consistency, it should still be fluffy and hold shape. Alternatively you can use flavoured extracts or natural powder flavours which are available from the cake decorating company and from Squires Kitchen. I’ve tried lots of them and they’re really lovely. The flavours develop so advisable to make up the day before and add a little more if you think it needs it. Flavours I use frequently are lemon curd, raspberry either from good preserve with no seeds or NutraFresh powder, juice from several passion fruits, (sieve the seeds out) or use powder flavour, mango from NutraFresh, pinacolda powder flavour. Lemon and a hint of mint is nice too as is ginger but an acquired taste better suited for winter cakes. LorAnn oils also have a wide range of flavours.
For the syrup I use equal quantities of liquid and sugar boiled up for a couple of minutes. The liquid can be made either from lemon juice or a mix of lemon juice and water. I normally find 200ml liquid and 200g sugar sufficient for the 8″ and about 350 for the 10″ for brushing both sides of each layer. If all the cakes are the same you could just make up enough syrup or more in one go. Simple syrup doesn’t have to be refrigerated, make it up, cool and pour into a sterilized bottle and it will keep for weeks. Warm it up slightly before using.
I like using golden caster sugar which is unrefined and seems have a tangy taste which is missing from the white. Hope some of this helps, a bit long winded but gives you time to think about things. x